excerpted from a conversation with a scientist acquaintance in sydney...

Tony: Parts of the bible cannot be seen as anything more than historical such as Genesis 5:6 and onwards. The difficulty is having a document where history is mixed with allegory.

Andrea: why is that a difficulty? or rather, i am thinking it might be a difficulty if one expects the bible to be a historical record. i think (well, at least for me) that if you understand that it isn't, and do not expect it to be a book that will dovetail with the archeological record, then there is no problem.

Tony: My feeling is that God's message would have been conveyed much more clearly if there were fewer contentious issues.

Andrea: agreed! but that's the point. its not meant to be easy. it is meant to challenge us to rise above, to be better, to see the world differently, to shift us out of our linear paradigm. there is a saying that i live by: God never said it would be easy, he only said it would be worth it.

Tony: For example, miracles might impress the masses but how do those of Jesus compare with David Copperfield ?

Andrea: hmmm, well, in all honesty, and maybe i am the crackpot here (wouldn't be the first time i was accused of that :), i think there is a quantitative difference between miracles and sleight-of-hand.

Tony: People want to believe ...

Andrea: oh you are absolutely right! and the bible says that over and over again "they wanted to believe"

Tony: look at Uri Geller ... a failed magician with low grade parlour tricks, who suddenly became worshipped in god-like fashion when he claimed his powers were supernatural

Andrea: yes - and there were many MANY itinerant "messiahs" wandering around the ancient middle east. Jesus, as another wandering prophet, was nothing new to the people of his time. what IS remarkable, at least to me, is that 2000+ years later, HE is the one that we still remember. He is the one still shaping our culture and our lives. for me, that alone testifies to the fact that there was something a leeeeeetle bit different about this particular scruffy guy from the west bank :)

Tony:... it's even interesting to note that James Randi points out that even science is easily fooled and that it takes a top magician to spot scamsters like Geller and many others.

Andrea: oh my goodness - don't even talk to me about "the amazing randi"! he lost all credibility with me a few years back when he shot off his mouth once too often. even carl sagan withdrew from CSICOP because it was full of idiots like randi!

Tony: I have a friend who has travelled to India several times to see Sai Baba (his literature claims he is "110%" god) ... he was caught out on camera by the BBC but people still blindly follow him in their tens of thousands. The more time passes, the more that "miracles" seem to be set in stone ... if Jesus' were amazing, just look at the claims of Buddah ! Any reasonable person would see Buddah's history as total nonsense, but again, millions believe ... and of course Buddhism has some great messages, just like Christianity.

Andrea: oh without a doubt! that is the essence of the choice God gives us to follow Him or not. what amazes me about the concept of God is that while He is omnipotent and could easily compel universal adoration and love, He doesn't. He still leaves the choice to love Him up to us. that just floors me.

Tony: Much of the problem lies not in Christianity but in the Church ... the Church, in it's many denominations, is all about power and control, as it has been throughout history ...

Andrea: yes. you are right. as the church, we have much to atone for, much to repent of. personally, i don't think that diminishes the good works that the Church has done over the millennia, but people do tend to overlook that because the it is politically acceptable to bash the church. i accept that, and i knew i would be taking on the yoke of the church's history - good and bad - with the collar. but i am one of those "no use crying over spilled milk" people. i figure atone, make amends, then get on with the job of doing it better in the future.

Tony: and even the manipulation and corruption of the bible to these ends ... just look at the 2nd commandment for example ... compare the latest and St James versions ... "nor the likeness of anything in the heaven above nor the earth beneath" - this includes crosses on chains around the neck, statues of Mary, even the church building itself. Jesus clearly did not preach the use of ornamentation and church buildings and the like ... he taught a simple life !!! ... of course a simple life would take power away from the Church

Andrea: have you read NT wright? he is a theologian that might shed some light on issues like these (i mean if they really ARE issues! if not, then its all good :))


any and all comments are welcome........